Curse

MMSDome · Dec 29, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

What you guys don't understand is that if they kept the same builds around and never change anything the game would become stale and no one would want to play it anymore.

By changing up skills it drives people to use 'creativity' and make new builds and try new things. If A-Net listened to the community that got butt-hurt over every single update we would still be back in 2005, farming shit without them fleeing from AoE. How fun would that be, doing the same thing for 4 years?

Be thankful A-Net "nerfs" things because it keeps content fresh until the majority can abuse the next big build to come about and claim it as their own. (Although they have been quite slow in the past year)

Windf0rce · Dec 29, 2009, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

i said time and time again nerf pve prot spirit (if u use this skill u lose all enchants?)- = end of 600.

600 should be nerfed by changing the funcionality of Holy Wrath and Retribution, two skills that are used for nothing else other than farming. I see no reason to change Protective Spirit when it is a staple skill for balanced builds, so even if it had a PvE-only split, it would be an undeserved nerf.

zwei2stein · Dec 29, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

600 should be nerfed by changing the funcionality of Holy Wrath and Retribution, two skills that are used for nothing else other than farming. I see no reason to change Protective Spirit when it is a staple skill for balanced builds, so even if it had a PvE-only split, it would be an undeserved nerf.

HW/Retribution does not even need nerf, it needs bugfix:

It still deals full damage even when 600 recieves zero damage via Shield of Absorption instead of doing damage it should (33% of zero and 66% of zero, which is, you know, zero).

Redvex · Dec 29, 2009, 12:37 PM // 12:37

But i am the only that wanna see dismissed skills buffed to a "normal skills"?
I wanna find a sense to use equinox or lacerate (i'm a ranger but it is same for other professions i suppose), traps (not for farming) and spirit in pve etc etc.
Ok i am agree with needs to rebalance the game but not to kill it at all.
I wanna a more variety of effective build. Not a new god mode but a new variety of fun and effective builds.

Fay Vert · Dec 29, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

But i am the only that wanna see dismissed skills buffed to a "normal skills"?
I wanna find a sense to use equinox or lacerate (i'm a ranger but it is same for other professions i suppose), traps (not for farming) and spirit in pve etc etc.
Ok i am agree with needs to rebalance the game but not to kill it at all.
I wanna a more variety of effective build. Not a new god mode but a new variety of fun and effective builds.

This makes more sense than the pages of drivel posted above.

Tullzinski · Dec 29, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Do not allow entry to UW if you have SF on your skill bar. Problem Solved for ANET, no more SF UWSC, no need waste manpower balancing the skill. Still allows solo farming elsewhere in game using SF. Stays in line with ANETs stated feelings on the issue.

I may be wrong, but it seems that the basic mechanisms for doing this are already in game. Examples: cannot equip more than 3 PVE only skills, events that change your skill bars upon entry to a location, not able to enter the Zaishen Challenge while a hero is in your party.

How hard would it be to block the few "unwanted" skills from entering UW? This would eliminate the need for all the nerfing.

zwei2stein · Dec 29, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk Banewalker

Full graph quoted with relevant point in bold, as it is evident that you didn't satisfactorily comprehend it the first time you read it over.

Your full graph was basically making up shit (order of builds, obsiflesh being strongest after sf) while it ignores "mob" power, and he was correcting your mistakes and worst conceptual mistake: "stretch"

He correctly pointled out that if you stretch it back to 100%, you also have to stretch mobs. When you take mobs into account, Your new "top" will NOT be as overpowered as SF was, mobs will be much closer to whatever best build is. It is going to be slower and less effective.

Because it will not be as powerfull in relation to proper baseline: mobs. Because relation to mobs matters most if we talk about easy buttons and win-skills.

So no, it is not going to look as overpowered. best run duration for new farm build simply be higher, no relative graph will hide it and average pug run duration will stay same. Sorry, it is not going to look as much imba as you think.

People are not blind, they will notice longer and harder runs ... And they will remember SF. High "sf" baseline might as well stay because people will compare new teambuild with sf, and will come to conclusion: it is weaker, dude.

Oh yes, your "point"

Quote:

OF is not as strong as SF was, it takes a lot longer to farm an ecto. But now Obby Flesh looks just as over-powered as SF used to be.

Well, you do not need graphs and/or to make shit up to disprove this, you can know with certainty.

Why? Because we were already there, duh. Everyone who complains about SF just laughed at OF as slow and pointless back then. It was slow to point where half competent pug could compete with it.

So no, it did not look "as over-powered as SF". But go ahead, argue history...

Kaleban · Dec 29, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Do not allow entry to UW if you have SF on your skill bar. Problem Solved for ANET, no more SF UWSC, no need waste manpower balancing the skill. Still allows solo farming elsewhere in game using SF. Stays in line with ANETs stated feelings on the issue.

I may be wrong, but it seems that the basic mechanisms for doing this are already in game. Examples: cannot equip more than 3 PVE only skills, events that change your skill bars upon entry to a location, not able to enter the Zaishen Challenge while a hero is in your party.

How hard would it be to block the few "unwanted" skills from entering UW? This would eliminate the need for all the nerfing.

This is a terrible idea, but not without some merit. The problem arises then that if ANet were to set a precedent for banning certain Elite (or even normal skills) from PvE areas that were deemed by someone as OP, then the next time a QQ thread pops up, another skill gets nerfed, ad infinitum, until all you can do is auto-attack.

Your idea's merit though is in pointing out the necessity for area balance. Some have said that SF is OP, and they're right, but then they call for a nerf without realizing WHY its OP, which is wrong.

SF is OP because, just like any other OP build, it exploits the game mechanic and player knowledge to take advantage of mob AI, static skill and mob placement, and many other factors.

Rather than starting a trend of skill nerfing from the beginning, as ANet did, they COULD (and still should) have altered mob makeup and placement, just as in games like Diablo (this game's inspiration to some extent) that made characters have to react to new situations.

This is the BEST solution, and the easiest metaphor I can think of is this:

You have a Swiss Army Knife (skillbar). It has many tools on it, and some are more multi-purpose than others (saw blade is more useful in general than the toothpick). You change the tools you use based on the situation (alter skillbar for certain areas).

However, the problem now is, ANet's skill nerfing and those that support it are basically telling players that they have to buy a new SAK every couple of months, with new and different tools, to counter the problems in the same areas. Once people figure out how the new tools work, the same problems will crop up because the challenges presented to the player are ALWAYS the same.

If ANet instead left the SAK alone, and focused their energies on making areas and mobs randomize (or say have a mob pick a certain skillset out of four possible ones upon entering the instance), not only would their be less work in the long run due to this sort of being "automated balancing" but it would encourage renewed interest in old areas and more diverse groups to handle the varied challenges.

[edit] This is like a Frozen Orb Sorc in D2 blitzing through most of D2 in Normal and NM, but getting stopped "cold" (pun intended) by all the cold immune monsters in Hell, necessitating either group play or a change in tactics and skill point allocation. Or even re-building a more effective character.

GW took the idea of re-builds and made it easier, by allowing you to do this at any time basically, but forgot entirely about randomization, which adds a LOT of replayability.

In short, ANet should:

1. Make mobs skills and placement AND selection randomize, either completely or a choice of a certain number of preset options.

2. Re-examine the rewards and drops for areas, not just Duncan's chest but also grawl in Surmia. By either randomizing drops (i.e. ecto has a 0.004% chance to drop ANYWHERE) or expanding drop tables to make early areas more attractive than just feather farming and such, you'd see a renewed interest in ALL areas.

There could be other things done, but just these two would take MUCH less time and effort than beta testing skill patches for multiple weeks and setting up test servers etc., etc. AND they would be much more effective at actually solving the problem.

Dusk Banewalker · Dec 29, 2009, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

snip

The gist of impulsion's proposal was that in replacing the grossly imba sf with of or something more moderate, the community is forced to play through with an experience nearer to that of a balanced team, rather than running 8 copies of the same bar and laughing at the mobs with impunity. I believe that when he said that of would look as imba as sf, he was referring to the trend of constant nerfing that seems to go on.

As for my post, I was merely expressing a bit of indignation towards the troll, and pointing out that his attack on impulsion was unjustified. I am sure that impulsion was aware of the relation to the mob baseline when he wrote his post.

Lishy · Dec 29, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

OF is not as strong as SF

You have a speed clause, require upkeeping skills, lack of bar compression, and can still be hit by any non-spell.

Don't jump to conclusions

Old Man Of Ascalon · Dec 29, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

I keep telling myself that people will get tired/run out of things to talk about, regarding shadow form and it's up coming nerf.

I hate being wrong.

It's getting nerfed. It needed to be nerfed. If you disagree, it's simply because you use it to get rich and/or abuse it and don't want to see it go. I don't see what the all the debate is about.

As the heavy would say, "CRY SOME MORE!".

Reformed · Dec 29, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

OF is not as strong as SF

You have a speed clause, require upkeeping skills, lack of bar compression, and can still be hit by any non-spell.

330 OF is virtually identical considering you take a whopping 0 damage, have spell immunity and have no damage penalty. Your vulnerabilities are almost identical to SF adding in physical interrupts (they don't miss). The movement penalty can be effectively bypassed with cons which also help reduce recharge times giving you a little more freedom in bar layout.

It really doesn't matter though because everything is relative. OF was the most popular option before SF came along and it will become the most popular option again when it's gone. People adapt and the game goes on.

lishi · Dec 29, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

330 OF is virtually identical considering you take a whopping 0 damage, have spell immunity and have no damage penalty. Your vulnerabilities are almost identical to SF adding in physical interrupts (they don't miss). The movement penalty can be effectively bypassed with cons which also help reduce recharge times giving you a little more freedom in bar layout.

It really doesn't matter though because everything is relative. OF was the most popular option before SF came along and it will become the most popular option again when it's gone. People adapt and the game goes on.

If SF replaced OF in almost everything. That mean relative to OF (and pretty much most of other thing in the game) SF is better, and not by a little length.

Remember, getting 0 damage is not the same as not being hit.
The speed reduction mean also much less flexibility.

Reformed · Dec 29, 2009, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

If SF replaced OF in almost everything. That mean relative to OF (and pretty much most of other thing in the game) SF is better, and not by a little length.

Remember, getting 0 damage is not the same as not being hit.
The speed reduction mean also much less flexibility.

I'm not arguing against SF dominance, that has nothing to do with my post.

Farmers/runners have improved in skill and knowledge of the runs. All this means is that some areas will either cost more to do quickly/safely or require more skillful players to do it, nothing else changes. If your average Perma player can figure out that it's a bad idea to stand on top of a trap cluster (most of the time anyways) I'm pretty sure the average OF player will understand it's a bad idea to stand in front of D-Shot spammers.

Movement speed can be buffed to get that -50% down to -17%. That was workable two years ago and it's still workable today.

Tullzinski · Dec 29, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

1. Make mobs skills and placement AND selection randomize, either completely or a choice of a certain number of preset options.

2. Re-examine the rewards and drops for areas, not just Duncan's chest but also grawl in Surmia. By either randomizing drops (i.e. ecto has a 0.004% chance to drop ANYWHERE) or expanding drop tables to make early areas more attractive than just feather farming and such, you'd see a renewed interest in ALL areas.

There could be other things done, but just these two would take MUCH less time and effort than beta testing skill patches for multiple weeks and setting up test servers etc., etc. AND they would be much more effective at actually solving the problem.

I have seen mob skill and selection randomization mentioned before and I think that would also be a good fix, but my only question is how would that affect what skills the players take?

As you mention it is player knowledge of an area that allows it to be vanquished quickly. However, if we have no knowledge of what to expect or a limited set as you describe, would that area become impossible to complete due to the random nature or only having a chance of clearing the area by bringing the correct counters and matching the limited skill/mob set rotation. Implemented correctly I would agree that it is a good alternative to nerf bat.

As ANET has stated it is not the farming itself that bothers them it is the speed of the farming. IMO I think either suggestion (random skill & mob / skill denial in an area) could be made to work and are a much better option to the endless nerfing of the next best speed clear.

D2 - memories - sigh....

I do miss my mephisto runs

Arduin · Dec 29, 2009, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I have seen mob skill and selection randomization mentioned before and I think that would also be a good fix, but my only question is how would that affect what skills the players take?

I would just bring my Necro Assassin's Promise caller with the three Necro Discord Heroes, and probably still have an easy time on Hardmode.

But implementing random mobs with balanced, random skill bars is a start.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 29, 2009, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

I would just bring my Necro Assassin's Promise caller with the three Necro Discord Heroes, and probably still have an easy time on Hardmode.

But implementing random mobs with balanced, random skill bars is a start.

Really not sure why people keep mentioning this.

Would it be great? Yes.
Is ANet going to spend time completely revamping the foundation of the game? No

Yoom Omer · Dec 29, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Best option - Change every mob in the game, each with a balanced build and a balanced group.

Realistic option - Nerf SF. New stuff wil appear/reappear.

Arduin · Dec 29, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Really not sure why people keep mentioning this.

Would it be great? Yes.
Is ANet going to spend time completely revamping the foundation of the game? No

Hoping it will be implemented in GW.

If not, hoping it will be implemented in GW2.

If not, keep on whining about it until Anet figures their game model isn't able to accompany such game code, decides to ditch GW2 and starts building GW3.

----- beware, the above post may be classified as sarcasm -----

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 29, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduin

Hoping it will be implemented in GW.

If not, hoping it will be implemented in GW2.

If not, keep on whining about it until Anet figures their game model isn't able to accompany such game code, decides to ditch GW2 and starts building GW3.

----- beware, the above post may be classified as sarcasm -----

WoW works fine with static mob skills.